MattePainting.Org
HOME Gallery Store FAQ Members Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MattePainting.Org > Resources > General Discussions
Reload this Page what is matte painting?
General Discussions News, Chat ...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
(#11)
Old
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default 05-09-2005, 12:03 PM

Well, this is exactly why I usually keep my mouth shut. I only speak from personal experience and I maintain an open appreciation for all forms of art.

But mainly what I was focused on was remembering the frustration I felt all my life while drawing and wondering why my drawings always lacked something. It was my ignorance of composition and the many elements of design theory that master artists throughout the centuries have all come to know and represent in their works.

The relationship to using photos or not wasn't meant to be a debate between the two. It was more along the lines of...

You find a photo on the web that looks "cool", you put things here and there that work, you blur, stamp, adjust and voila you have a matte painting...

OR

You're able to sketch out a thumbnail of what you're envisioning, you use good proportion, perspective and form before worrying about the details, you enhance with photo referrence, and then let photoshop do it's "magic".

I'm just a 35 y.o. marine combat vet with a creative strain and alot of personal perspective that has seaped gradually into the way that I view art historically and in it's modern use and creation. I'm not here to tell people what's right, wrong, cool or uncool for the purpose of self preservation. I'm just a wannabe artist like everyone else.
Reply With Quote
(#12)
Old
Eisner's Avatar
Eisner is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 273
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: London, UK
Default 05-09-2005, 12:20 PM

Never mind photos what about using 3D aswell? Is that wrong?

I think many people are good at putting photos together but inevatabley there has to be some artistic imagination, and no ammount of software and images can replace that.

Look at all the professionals around here they all use photos in their work, but these are often added to save time and effort that could otherwise be used on composition, and lighting.

It's just what gets the job done..and when it's done I think we can all tell whether it's good or not.

It's interesting that Dentsinger points out the new breed of interest in matte painting that seems to have surfaced recentley. But that could just be the new exposure from sites like this. I still see very ittle on DVD extras about painting...it's all 3D.

Dentsinger relax. I can understand what your saying but it just isn't realistic. As for the educational system, sure when these pupils pass with crap work by the time they hit the industry it will always sort the wheat out from the chaff!

I know sometimes it feels like a big race but like my mum said when swimming a race (she was in the commonwealth team). "Never look back or around and see what everyone else is doing, because you'll loose your pace and direction, and lose the race. Only look forward, and keep going"


Justin Atkinson (was Eisner)
----------------------------------------------
Matte Painter / VFX Artist
Reply With Quote
(#13)
Old
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default 05-09-2005, 12:27 PM

Eisner...it's just my personality...but regarding 3d, and anything else for that matter...I'm not afraid of technology nor what SOME of it has to offer. I've been sticking with Cinema 4d for some time and I think the use of 3d elements along with digital stills is a natural progression and I use the techniques as well in some of my video work. The only problem is when I pay to see movies and they're so chock full of special effects, everything looks 3d and even the elements that aren't 3d have you guessing and taking your focus off of seeing a good movie...that's just me though. I still enjoy learning the processes off creating these shots, and as I said earlier, my work sucks, but that's the way I tick. I enjoy the process, not necessarily the product.
Reply With Quote
(#14)
Old
jsbaxter's Avatar
jsbaxter is Offline
Member
 
Posts: 53
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Send a message via AIM to jsbaxter Send a message via Yahoo to jsbaxter
Default 05-09-2005, 01:41 PM

this is my opinion..or view on the subject
Matte Painting has become a term to best describe what it is that we do. Originally Matte paintings was a post process of double exposure. On set they'd use a "MATTE" to hold out exposure on film and then re-expose it with a painting in its place. Weather its done on glass on set or done on glass during post, process back then was the same. Hold out MATTE..Paint where the Matte was.

So lets fast forward to now. We use Green screen or roto to do the matte process and still have to slam an image in its place. And like so many things in our world, we use something familiar and standard to describe what it is that we do. So the term So the term Matte Painting still holds true. We still have a "Matte"..but the "Painting" part is now so subjective..What else should we call it. "Matte Background" , "Matte Environment" "Matte Collage with a little Paint work" ..ok that ones a bit of a strain. But I think "Matte Painting" has an old world feel and keeps us thinking of tradition. Gives us a feeling of inheriting a great skill passed down from generation to generation. Back then, matte painters were diamonds in the rough, and to do our work, was not something that any joe could do. But now with Photoshop, Painter 9, and various 3D programs. Its made this line of work easier, and unfortunately more available to "Joe Public"


To segway into my next comment. I've seen some who have called them selves "Matte Painters" do nothing but photo stitch.. Is this wrong? Have I waisted 5yrs in art college painting in oil, acrylics, and various media? When all I needed was Photoshop? I say NO....I havent. I've seen many "matte painters" come and go ..well mainly GO cause they did NOT have basic understanding of light, shadow, color concepts / design. They stitch 5 photos together and can not figure out why they dont look right. I've seen some sooo bad, the cloneing was soo Obvious. I worked with Ben Procter on Dungeons and Dragons and don't know if he remembers me showing him an image someone did as a FINAL. Not going to name who did the painting..but Ben and I had a pretty good laugh. This was a prime example of someone relying on the program, and not talent. Ben is an fantastic artist, as is Alp, whom I'm working with now. Roger Kupelian I've known for many yrs ..long before he was working on Lord of the Rings. These pple have a basic skill of understanding light, design, and color, average joe does not. He / she may like a piece of art, but a artist will tell you "WHY" it appeals to you.


Final thought. Matte Painting is an art form. Weather you use photo, or die hard "old schooling" it..You the artist have to be just that..an artist. As pointed out before, average joe wont understand why something doesnt look right, however we will. Well thats my 2 cents and in the words of Forest Gump "Thats all I got to say about that"
Reply With Quote
(#15)
Old
Eisner's Avatar
Eisner is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 273
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: London, UK
Default 05-09-2005, 03:08 PM

Well I can't believe that I have spent the last 3 days putting some backgrounds together in Combustion only to discover that they would have rendered in a 10th of the time in After Effects!!!

So pissed off..now I'm working in AE. Bloody combustion gets me everytime. You think hey..a serious piece of compositing I'll use a serious piece of software..I'm sticking with AE from now on!!..sorry to digress.


Justin Atkinson (was Eisner)
----------------------------------------------
Matte Painter / VFX Artist
Reply With Quote
(#16)
Old
rrische is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 383
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Default 05-09-2005, 04:02 PM

Oh boy...THIS discussion again.

Should I open my mouth here?? "Blah blah blah"....right, Alp?

OK, how about this? Matte painting is a JOB. From my experience, the
only useful definition is the one that encompasses the widest possible
set of skills necessary to accomplish said job.

My last job had a modern day elementary school as the location
for the work we did. No futurism. No period detail. No double sunsets
shading everything in a warm nostalgic glow.
The director shot ALL of his live action footage against greenscreen.
He then sent a stills photographer to the school location to shoot numerous
photo reference to be used as the backgrounds for every single shot.
The matte painting work involved creating each and every background
for the greenscreen footage using these photos. We had to determine
the desired angle, the camera FOV, the lens height, etc. based on the
greenscreen shot in question. We stitched these photos together on
a shot-by-shot basis to complete each sequence. We found that sometimes,
the shot required a background that hadn't been covered by the location
photographer. We found that sometimes the photographer had shot
a particular angle out of focus, and it had to be created entirely from
scratch. We needed to remove a LOT of trees in the shots, as they were
being recreated as 3D moving elements. We had to create panoramic
stormy skies for the sequences as well. We had to work VERY fast,
and the result had to look VERY good. We were under tremendous time
pressure.

Was this job matte painting? i.e. something you would need a matte
artist to do? YOU BET IT WAS.

Other films I've worked on ("Star Wars", "Day After Tomorrow", "Peter
Pan", "Sleepy Hollow") required that you pull it off with NOTHING but
your skills and imagination. 3d, photo-manipulation, full on paint-
IT'S ALL IN YOUR JOB DESCRIPTION if you want to work on a steady
basis. Maybe we need to stop getting hung up on labels. How about this?
A matte artist is somebody who's an expert in photo-realistic ENVIRONMENTS (as opposed to TD's, modelers, texture artists, animators
who's specialty is CHARACTERS).

Anybody who thinks even the "easy" jobs are actually EASY, or isn't
using real matte painting skills, is just plain WRONG.

If all you can do is stitch photos together, you won't have a career
as a matte painter. But is stitching photos together part of the job?
Sometimes. And you'd better be GOOD at it, too.


Rick Rische
------------------------------
Digital Matte Artist
Reply With Quote
(#17)
Old
jsbaxter's Avatar
jsbaxter is Offline
Member
 
Posts: 53
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Los Angeles
Send a message via AIM to jsbaxter Send a message via Yahoo to jsbaxter
Default 05-09-2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:
If all you can do is stitch photos together, you won't have a career
as a matte painter. But is stitching photos together part of the job?
Sometimes. And you'd better be GOOD at it, too.

Thats basically what I was trying to say..I just get a little long winded sometimes
Reply With Quote
(#18)
Old
B. Kachel is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 209
Join Date: Oct 2004
Send a message via AIM to B. Kachel Send a message via MSN to B. Kachel
Default 05-09-2005, 04:25 PM

That is pretty much what I had thought as well Rick.

-Brandon


Brandon Kachel
Matte Painter
bkachel.com
Reply With Quote
(#19)
Old
Eisner's Avatar
Eisner is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 273
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: London, UK
Default 05-09-2005, 05:25 PM

Words of wisdom Rick!

Hopefully this discussion will be finally put to bed.


Justin Atkinson (was Eisner)
----------------------------------------------
Matte Painter / VFX Artist
Reply With Quote
(#20)
Old
plaf's Avatar
plaf is Offline
Senior Member
 
Posts: 144
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Denmark
Send a message via MSN to plaf
Default 05-09-2005, 06:21 PM

It seems this topic is a bit of a sore tooth - but for what it's worth, I think this thread has helped me get some things straight ... at least in my own head =) Thanks for the various posts, let's indeed put this subject to rest.

/palfpl


___________________________________________
Mogens Skjold Overbeck
Freelance Illustrator, Games Artist and Matte Painter
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com