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Default 05-29-2011, 02:34 PM

Just came back from watching Pirates and well to add on to this. I was trying to spot my mate's name on the credit list and I couldn't find it since it was all cluttered and packed under Digital artists section.

I felt like they were trying to save space by having multiple names one line, while production drivers get a single line credit, a lead senior artist's name can't be spotted since it is lost in between the lines of a fast moving credit list.


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Default 05-29-2011, 03:00 PM

Yes exactly...I don't know, but lately the film industry disappoints me more and more. I think I'm gonna leave it aside entirely and work on commercials and TV, that's were the fun is (still).


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Default 05-30-2011, 03:48 AM

gfilmman - I admire your passion, but it will never realistically happen. Computers make everything faster, higher detail, and more easily adjustable to fit a client / directors vision. You couldn't ever convince either vfx studios or the production studios that it would be a good idea to drop digital and go back to traditional matte painting and vfx. There were some great skills back in those days, but its just a different game now. I feel that concept artists are working in a closer way to traditional matte painting than todays digital matte painters, which is why I like to do a bit of both.

Suirebit - Some films give a lot of credit. Universal were very generous with the vfx credits on Scott Pilgrim vs The World, I don't know anyone that felt that they deserved a credit and didn't get one on that show, and there was no lumping under 'digital artist'. Although it helps that one studio handled a huge amount of the work, as they do tend to give more credit space to the lead vendor.

N


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Default 05-30-2011, 04:08 AM

Right lets get this straight,

the credits are broken down into blocks for a specific Reason, the films have to be saleable to other markets than movie theatres. There are other outlets that require short credits to reduce file size. The films are formatted in length for in flight entertainment, TV channels, Hospitals, Military operations welfare packages, Asian Market. You will probably notice a 3 and half minute crappy pop song at the start of the credit roll. This is so the TV editors can J cut the music and trim the credits into that 3 and half minute slot. Remember air time is advertising time. Another trick is to edit the main credits into block departments and overcrank the credit roll. All the subcontractor companies come last, even ILM, Digital Domain etc are Subcontractors and on the credit roll they get second billing. Only people interested and working in the industry read the credits. Joe public does not give a rats a***e who the best boy is let alone a matte painter.

The only credit line to check is what hundreds of agents do daily is to scan Imdb for credits.

Yes its nice to see your name on the credit roll, and I know Stan winston had a massive battle to get VFX makeup higher up the roll.

Also having worked on a few TV shows I honestly am not that bothered anymore.

You are an artist, working digitally whats wrong with Digital Artist, there are concept designers out there that would beat you hands down on a matte painting, matte painting is not and will never be an elite artform.

Nuff said

Rich


Cheers Rich


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Default 05-30-2011, 05:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by nickmarshallvfx View Post
gfilmman - Computers make everything faster, higher detail, and more easily adjustable to fit a client / directors vision.
N
That's my point. It makes it too easy to do a lot of shots, in a shorter time frame and with more changes, and yet again more changes, oh and can you make some more changes? Get the idea? It's not a respected craft anymore, imo.

Also, the reusable asset, reusable environment idea is not that far fetched. Avatar has all its assets from the first movie. If Cameron wanted to, being the skilled artist he is, he could work with less digital matte artists on the next one. Actually, he hired digital matte artists to do the concept art. I find that a tip of the hat to their artistic and technical skills, but also funny. There are vfx supervisors and many others in supervisor roles that view matte painting as concept art now, and opt more often for high resolution photography projected on geometry.

If there was no 3D involved in Avatar, think of the additional matte painting that would have been required to pull that film off. Just a thought.

Last edited by gfilmman; 05-30-2011 at 05:41 AM..
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Default 05-30-2011, 05:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockhoppermedia View Post
You are an artist, working digitally whats wrong with Digital Artist, there are concept designers out there that would beat you hands down on a matte painting, matte painting is not and will never be an elite artform.

Nuff said

Rich
I'm sorry, but this shows an utter lack of respect and no appreciation for the art and history of matte painting. If you look at a Whitlock, Ellenshaw or Pangrazio to name a few, in person you'll see some of the absolute best paintings ever made, from both a technical and artistic standpoint. It was hard to pull off, and very few people could do it. Have you tried it? These guys were better than the rest and very often created their own concepts.

The pros working in digital matte painting didn't exactly choose the digital tool set. They are carrying the torch well in some respects though, and while digital is definitely easier than pre-digital matte painting it is still a difficult field and craft. It is losing respect because computers make it easier to make changes, and the new tools (one-button-push type of tools that give renders somewhat close to realism) give certain people the impression that digital matte painting is just digital art, equal or lesser value than some hideous looking Vue render without any painting over or a storyboard stick figure drawing done in 5 minutes.

I don't know, if I'm wrong I fully apologize, but seems to me you're saying people shouldn't care about their craft or getting the respect they deserve, so they can better their careers.

Last edited by gfilmman; 05-30-2011 at 05:51 AM..
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Default 05-30-2011, 05:55 AM

Care about your craft but get over yourself, I am trained as a pro photographer from a generation of large format. Digital has ruined that industry, you can care about your craft and be respectful to it.

An analogy a Director who took the time to explain digital to me was thus:

Over two hundred years carpenters would craft beautiful pieces of furniture, it would take them a full year to create objects and craft, carve by hand.

Present day a CAD drawing can be done in a day, sent to a factory floor and a automated process would craft the same item in an hour,

That is what digital has done to matte painting.

To be successful matte painting is a niche it is fast crude and automated, it is like saying the man who presses send on the CAD drawing in the office is a carpenter.

There are good matte painters here that would struggle without oils and glass. How many here are trained in latent image printing and set up.

To be successful in this business is to be flexible and diversify.

Respect your craft and others working with you but getting misty eyed over sable size 8 and the smell of turps and chinagraph is not going to feed you, clothe you and look after your family.

You have to be savvy in this game, for me that is more important.

Plus there is a matte painter on this forum who could not paint for toffee without digital. Luckily for me I was trained as a painter prior to digital.


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Default 05-30-2011, 06:01 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockhoppermedia View Post
Care about your craft but get over yourself, I am trained as a pro photographer from a generation of large format. Digital has ruined that industry, you can care about your craft and be respectful to it.

An analogy a Director who took the time to explain digital to me was thus:

Over two hundred years carpenters would craft beautiful pieces of furniture, it would take them a full year to create objects and craft, carve by hand.

Present day a CAD drawing can be done in a day, sent to a factory floor and a automated process would craft the same item in an hour,

That is what digital has done to matte painting.

To be successful matte painting is a niche it is fast crude and automated, it is like saying the man who presses send on the CAD drawing in the office is a carpenter.

There are good matte painters here that would struggle without oils and glass. How many here are trained in latent image printing and set up.

To be successful in this business is to be flexible and diversify.

Respect your craft and others working with you but getting misty eyed over sable size 8 and the smell of turps and chinagraph is not going to feed you, clothe you and look after your family.

You have to be savvy in this game, for me that is more important.

Plus there is a matte painter on this forum who could not paint for toffee without digital. Luckily for me I was trained as a painter prior to digital.
Well said Rich. I guess I have to accept the fact that things have changed. I didn't have to accept slaving over a computer for crazy long hours in digital matte art though, so I left it behind real quick. Luckily I didn't have a family to think about when I made that move.
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Default 05-30-2011, 07:47 AM

IMDb is not a solid tool for checking credit information. Yes, they do their own checks and make an effort to ensure that all info is correct, but at the end of the day, individuals have to add their own credits to IMDb. There is nothing stopping someone from adding a credit (or 10) for films that they had nothing to do with, and it going unnoticed for a while. In the meantime, that person may have secured employment on the strength of that experience...

Its not likely, but my point is that there really isn't a solid way to check that a person worked on a film other than to check the credits. Whether joe public is interested or not, its the only foolproof way to prove you had a part in a project, and I can tell you for an absolute hard fact, the projects that you work on DO have a bearing on future employment.
I don't just mean having 5 film credits is better than having 1, I mean if your five credits are matte painter on Avatar, Iron Man, LOTR, King Kong and The Dark Knight, you will get more job offers than an artist of the exact same skill level whose credits are 5 smaller independent features. Even if you were working in the exact same facility during these projects. That's just the way it works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockhoppermedia View Post

there are concept designers out there that would beat you hands down on a matte painting

Rich
Can you clarify this point?

Cheers,
Nick


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Default 05-30-2011, 09:09 AM

Hey Nick some interesting points you have raised on this debate,

Imdb is open to fraud and your points I agree with, on my point about other designers out there being as good or even better than matte painters is to reinforce this false pedestal that matte painters are the creme de la creme of production art.

Concept Artists such as feng Zhu, Mark McReery, James Gurney Ömür Özgür, B. Börkur Eiríksson, the list goes on are people to watch and learn off.

Even our very own Dylan Cole (hi Dylan how are you?) provides concept art.

Matte painters of the past were truly masters of there craft, however there is a fineline between the digital art disciplines of now. It is a grey area, some mattes can be done in a matter of hours, others months.

however all the tools are the same and the methodologys are merging into one.

Great debate

and as always Nick firm friends

Rich


Cheers Rich


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