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Default 05-30-2011, 10:00 AM

Rich, actors, makeup artists, costumes guys etc. are professionals too and you could tell them aswell that it's just a job and they shouldn't mind if they are credited last. Well....imagine someone would do that - credit actors or costume guys at the very end; What would happen then? A very big scandal most likely.

Why should we get less respect than anyone else?


"Digital Art is like magic...and we are all it's Wizards"

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Last edited by Suirebit; 05-30-2011 at 03:48 PM..
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Default 05-30-2011, 10:40 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suirebit View Post
Why should we get less respect than anyone else?
Let's face it, matte art isn't as hard anymore. It's cheaper too.

I think the budget and bidding on shot by shot basis, coupled with computers allowing for endless revisions and quick cg rendering has cheapened what used to be unique and appreciated and well paid and well respected, hand done matte painting, to 'digital art.' Because there are so many digital artists contributing to so many shots, using virtually the same software and tools for every discipline the lines are getting very blurry. Matte art is less important because it can be done quicker and costs less than it used to. Everyone and their dog seems to be labeling themselves a matte artist nowadays, and it's because of computers and everyone using the same cg tools. I am almost certain it caused the death of stop motion in film, and it caused the death of true matte painting as well.

Might as well move into concept art if you got the creative and technical skills that will get you the respect you are looking for.

I want to add one final thing, then I'll leave my passion at home and leave you guys alone, :). Who do you respect more, the actor who delivers a great, unique performance and through confidence in their uniqueness and appeal can demand huge pay every time, or the one who isn't really that special and relies on one redundant, overexposed trick that almost any average person could do with a bit of training. The people who bring something really unique to the table get the top credit, artists included. If digital 'artists' are only 3d software gurus, they can be replaced. Because there are so many shots and budgets so tight, and there is such a big pool of digital matte artists who only know 3d (for the most part), what stops a studio from pushing those folks around?

Last edited by gfilmman; 05-30-2011 at 10:56 AM..
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Default 05-30-2011, 11:22 AM

I'm not talking about matte painting here. By 'we' I refer to the whole VFX team, which, as said, was put in the same pot recently (including concept art or anything else....all were digital artists).

Also, this topic is about VFX dudes being tossed at the end, with less respect than even bodyguards...how cool is that? I joke you not, there was a credit called:

"Johnny Depp bodyguards" and guess what? After that it took 3 more minutes until the first VFX credit appeared.


"Digital Art is like magic...and we are all it's Wizards"

-Tiberius Viris-

Website: tiberius-viris.com

Last edited by Suirebit; 05-30-2011 at 11:24 AM..
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Default 05-30-2011, 12:34 PM

Quote:
Let's face it, matte art isn't as hard anymore.
Quote:
Might as well move into concept art if you got the creative and technical skills that will get you the respect you are looking for.
Almost all pro matte painters can produce concept art, and many do. It might not be as painterly / fluid as a pro concept artist (and hence less 'art book' friendly), but it's often more useful.

On the flip side of the coin, a lot of pro concept artists can't produce convincing matte paintings, particularly the more become complex / technical shots.

Digital matte painting is WAY more technical than concept art, and judging by the difficulty most companies have in recruiting good matte painters (with 90-99% of portfolios going straight in the bin), I don't think your argument holds up.

VFX gets the short end of the stick with credits because it came late to the party - by about 80 years. If a global VFX union is ever organised, maybe this could be changed - but I would be doubtful. I don't particularly like the fact that a VFX artist is credited below an insurance broker, but given that no-one ever watches the credits anyway (unless they are looking for someone), is it really worth the fight?

There are certainly issues with the VFX industry, and I hope some of them can be dealt with (VES is trying to get the discussion going at the moment with their 'VES 2.0 open letter). As long as artists are in the credits somewhere (and thus have proof of their involvement), there are bigger and more important battles to fight.

Just out of interest (and WITHOUT referring to the internet in any way), can anyone name a single 'Set Dresser' / 'Set Decorator'? They appear almost at the top of the credits.


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Default 05-30-2011, 03:16 PM

Exactly, most matte painters will do concept art / environment design as well as matte painting. Matte painting in itself may not be the artistic pursuit it once was, but to be honest, even concept artists use a lot of photo textures in their work.
But I agree that matte painting shouldnt be on some pedestal, although as Alex said, its very hard to find people with the broad knowledge base needed to take care of matte painting. The best matte painters are really full service environment artists that can conceptualise, render as a photoreal matte painting, do a 3d projection, and sometimes composite to a finished shot depending on complexity. Matte painters exist that don't do some of those bits, but if you can do all of those things you are much more valuable in a production.

The best matte painters at the least can conceptualise too. Some of the best concept artists are actually matte painters, such as Dylan Cole, Yanick Dusseault, Seung Ho Henrick Holmberg, Chris Thunig. It doesnt necessarily follow that good concept artists can do matte painting though, its a different mindset and some just cant adjust to the idea that you cant leave things loose and painterly.

But I think where someone is on the credits is less important than making sure people are getting them at all. Id love to be just between the director and lead actors, but cant see it happening soon ;)

And Rich, of course, no hostility here from me, sorry if it came across as such :)


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Default 05-30-2011, 04:00 PM

I see that the credits issue (both position and how complete - or better said incomplete - they are) is also among VES 2.0 concerns;

Alex, you are right, there are bigger fights to be won. As it is right now, I think (humbly) that the VFX industry is no longer sustainable. If nothing is done, the future can only lead to collapse or corporatism ...


"Digital Art is like magic...and we are all it's Wizards"

-Tiberius Viris-

Website: tiberius-viris.com

Last edited by Suirebit; 05-30-2011 at 04:02 PM..
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Default 05-30-2011, 05:12 PM

Guys,
I think I said in an earlier post that matte artists often do concept art as well. Oh my, I'm losing the fight against all digital here. :) Take care all,
-Gary
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Default 05-30-2011, 05:31 PM

guys guys, interesting points, but at the end of the day, still... it's just a business.
DMP becomes to be more and more technical, not only photoshop work anymore like 5/7 years ago and that's why it doesn't bugs me anymore if they call it all digital art ;)


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Default 05-31-2011, 01:50 AM

gfilmman - Yes you did, my comments about concept art weren't aimed at you, they arose from the discussion about whether concept art is now a more artistic profession than matte painting :)

de gerardo - This is true, and as artists we can't really control how the business side of things is run. We just have to hope that the industry can right itself and we all stay happily employed ;)

Cheers,
Nick


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Default 05-31-2011, 08:22 AM

personally i don't care that much about the whole credits-business and it's no news that people are grouped together rather than listed individually.
it's like 50/50 nowadays. just saw kung-fu panda2 the other day and in the credits every artist group had their own page.. but particularly productions with several hundreds, or 1000+ artists involved, go the easier route. understandably.
and i've never actually talked to an employer who admittedly looked through all the movies i've listed in my CV, to check if it's true lol.
i've not even updated my imdb until last week, so that just shows that all this stuff is not as important as it seems.
in the end it's what's in your portfolio and recommendations from people inside the industry, and particularly the latter, that's what's really rewarding i find.


and on a side note... nowadays 'digital artist' might even be more accurate than 'matte painter'. doesnt really have much to do with painting or anything like that.
which i find pretty cool actually. cg environment creation is a lot more fun than simply painting pretty pictures in my opinion. so probably 'environment artist' or 'digital artist' nails it better.
hmm...
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